Remembering Francis: A Legacy of Joy, Mercy & Mission

In this episode, Father Ben Little, our pastor, and Adrian Sanchez, director of marketing and communications,  reflect on the life and legacy of Pope Francis following his passing on Easter Monday. Through their Mount Rushmore "draft", they share personal memories and highlight the most significant contributions from Francis' papacy: from his missionary vision in Evangelii Gaudium and his inspiring leadership during the pandemic to his tender devotion to the forgotten and his deep connection to Our Lady and the saints. Join us in this heartfelt conversation that balances Easter joy with thoughtful remembrance as the Church prepares for a new chapter.

If you enjoy the Friends of the Bridegroom podcast, be sure to leave a 5-star rating and a short review telling us what you enjoyed! Blessings to you!

Transcript

Adrian

Hey, everyone! Adrian Sanchez, director of marketing and communications at Saint John's here. Before we get started with today's episode, I just wanted to hop in and apologize for the sound quality for this episode. We ran into some technical difficulties that we didn't realize until after the episode was already recorded and by this point, Father Ben was already on an airplane to France, so we couldn't rerecord this episode. Our amazing volunteer producer helped us get a really good sounding episode, but it's not exactly perfect. So we made sure that we uploaded the the transcript to any of your audio podcast platforms that you use. And then for our video edition that we put on YouTube and Facebook, we made sure to put onscreen subtitles for you to be able to follow along. So we're so sorry for the inconvenience. We hope you still enjoy this great conversation about Pope Francis and his legacy. Take care.

Fr. Ben

Hi everybody, and a very pleasant good day to you, wherever you may be. It is time for the “Friends of the Bridegroom” podcast here from Saint John the Baptist Catholic Church and School in Savage, Minnesota, where we seek friendship with Christ in our time after the example of our patron, Saint John the Baptist, who is the friend of the Bridegroom and rejoiced to hear his voice. And I'm Father Ben Little, your host and I work here at Saint John's, as does my co-host, Adrian Sanchez. Hey, Adrian.

Adrian

Howdy. Yeah.

Fr. Ben

We’d like to maybe begin with just a word that we haven't been able to say for a while: Alleluia.

Adrian

Alleluia.

Fr. Ben

Alleluia, He is risen.

Adrian

Sounds good.

Fr. Ben

Our first podcast in the Easter season, we had a beautiful celebration of the Triduum and Easter, in recent days, as we record this and we continue through these 50 days of joy of the Lord's victory over sin and death. Defeating death by death and rising and opening the gates of heaven to all of us for new life in him. So...

Fr. Ben

Great. Well, we’ll begin with prayer. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Adrian

Amen.

O Jesus, Bridegroom of the Church
 your forerunner, Saint John the Baptist,
 rejoiced to be near you as your friend
 and to hear your voice.

Draw us, like our holy patron
 into deep friendship with you
 and with each other,
 especially in these dark and confusing times.

For it is only in such friendship
 that we will be able to persevere
 in faith, hope and love.

May we, like John,
 ever notice the gentle approach
 of your Most Holy Mother Mary
 as she bears you into our company.

And having received you, our Divine Friend,
 from the faith of Mary’s fiat,
 from the testimony of John’s blood,
 and in the Most Holy Eucharist,
 stir up in us the courage and conviction
 to say to a hungry world:
 “Behold the Lamb of God.”

Amen

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Adrian

Amen.

Fr. Ben

All right.

Adrian

Well, we made it to the other side of Holy Week.

Fr. Ben

We did, we did.

Adrian

How was the journey for you?

Fr. Ben

It was a beautiful journey. It was, it was a bittersweet journey with, with the transition coming up. But, realizing that it was at this time last year where we were preparing for, to leave our, our church sanctuary and begin the sanctuary renovation. And I almost joked with people on Easter Sunday, because it was on Easter Sunday last year that was our last Mass before we moved everything over to the to the school auditorium, to the Father Whitman Auditorium for those nine weekends of construction that I almost joked, I said, “Well, we'll see everybody next Sunday in the gym.” No that's okay. Just kidding. And because of that, the way that timing happened. So so there it was, there was, every liturgical moment of the year and was the first, you know, in our, in beautiful sanctuary. And so this was the last of the firsts. And so it was great to finally come all the way back around and, and celebrate in that, in that beautiful space and, and, and especially, especially Holy Thursday, it was really moving because, I just had that and that sense of, as I, as I kind of mentioned in the homily, you know, begins that that Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper, you know, the Old Testament reading from the from the Exodus. God telling his people to, to prepare to eat the Passover, you know, with sandals on your feet and staff in hand,

Adrian

And loins girt.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. I left that part out.

Adrian

Okay.

Fr. Ben

Like, “What is he talking about?”

Adrian

You're right.

Fr. Ben

But yes. Exactly. Yes. And that's a, there's a whole, you know, biblical meaning to that phrase and even our Lord uses that, but yeah. And so just, you know, since that, I've got the sandals on my feet, my staff in hand, and yet, in the Gospel, the Lord’s beautiful words, those tender words.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

That He's thanking His Father for the gift of His disciples. And being able to love them to the end.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

And so just kind of spoke from the heart and said, I figure I've got my sandals on my feet, my staff in hand, but I want to love you to the end. And even in my, even in my imperfection and, and then to want to be like Jesus and do that and that really that grace of that moment kind of carry me through. And, you know, certainly that beautiful celebration of the Lord's passion and one of my favorite things every single year is to, is the Veneration of the Cross and seeing so many people that, the attendance was great and all of the of the liturgy was. Just very grateful for that. And to see all the people come and, you know, old and young and families and, and everybody and each coming up and having that really tender moment with, with the cross and and being close to Jesus, with him in his suffering. It's that's really one of the most powerful moments of the year. And then obviously the Easter Vigil, welcoming, you know, seven new brothers and sisters, some, three of them with Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist before others, just with confirmation and Eucharist. But you just see, to see, the family of God growing in that way and having walked with them through the OCIA process and shout up to, to Kayla and Matthew and Kyle and all those who have helped and obviously their families. And, you know, our last episode with, Spencer and Heidi, and we had to complete that joy at that moment was was really, really special. And then Easter Sunday itself. So yeah.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

Yeah, nice.

Fr. Ben

Pretty cool. Yeah.

Adrian

Now is there like any kind of like message or word that you're kind of like gonna be ruminating on throughout the season? You mentioned it's, you know, 50 days.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. Yeah.

Adrian

It’s not just an instantaneous celebration, one and over.

Fr. Ben

Right. So, yeah.

Adrian

Is there something that you're gonna be like unpacking?

Fr. Ben

I think the, I think the word from the, I'm just kind of in my own prayer over the last, over the course, and, and we're still in the Easter octave as we record this. But the word that's really been coming to me is “victory.”

Fr. Ben

That and I've been kind of sitting, sitting with that word and it's, it's Christ's victory. Right? He's the, he's the one who won it by his, by his suffering and death and rising from the dead. But yeah, we're victors. We're winners. You know, we win in him. And, and so just like “Lord, through these, through these 50 days, how do you want me to triumph and be victorious in you and how to participate in that victory?” Right. It's almost like, if, you know, everybody, everybody on the Yankees, if they win the World Series, you know, maybe Aaron Judge is the is the MVP. 

Adrian

Sure.

Fr. Ben

But even like the utility infielder gets a ring. So that's... and I like that. Right? I like that, you know, it's it's like, yeah, Frodo is the one who who wins. But Sam is there. Yeah. He gets to participate too. So yeah, that's the that's the kind of the place I’m at. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Right, right. Yeah. Thanks for asking that. And yeah, I, hopefully people can, can discover that in their own, you know, the circumstances of our lives and, and “Lord how do you want me to, how do you want me to be part of your victory?”

Adrian

Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Ben

And it's and it frees us, you know, like, I don't have to win, I don't have to win at everything myself. I don't have to be in that spirit of, like, competitiveness and comparison to others. But you know, just what in my days, you know, day by day, where can I even have those small victories that are really Your victory, Lord?

Adrian

Yeah. Cool.

Fr. Ben

Yeah, yeah. 

Adrian

So, I think the whole premise of Easter, it's so there's, there's this level of unexpected. Like, I mean, Jesus and his ministry, you know, gave hints and, and, you know, encouraged his disciples to, to just wait. But like, even in that, there was just this intense, unexpected joy and, and, I mean awe of the Resurrection. And, I think this year we kind of had a different kind of unexpected event that happened.

Fr. Ben

Exactly. Yes. Yes. And that that kind of leads us, I think, into our, our conversation today. Obviously, we wanted to speak about, yeah, that that unexpected thing that maybe not unanticipated, but certainly still kind of unexpected, at least in the moment that we that we heard the news that our, our, our Holy Father had passed away on Easter Monday morning. And that, we wanted to address that and have a conversation. How can you not? You know, so this is one of the biggest events in the life of the Church. Probably happens only a few times in anyone's lifetime. So, and the, yeah. Like you say that unexpected, news on that day. It's certainly sad. But even just in that moment, that it still was an Easter day, it was still that day of resurrection. And I think that was God's mercy, God's providence, which Pope Francis witnessed to so, so well. That he called him home, you know, on a day of resurrection. And so you can kind of see God's poetry at work there. In a very real way. And, and yeah, and, and the, you know, certainly my...

just kind of speaking from my own experience too, of, of this upcoming transition and, and now, you know, at a much higher level, the, you know, the transition from one shepherd to another for our whole Church is giving me another way to look at this. So yeah.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

Both unexpected. Both, you know, can never entirely prepare for. But it's part of the part of the adventure of living the Christian life and being part of his Church.

Adrian

Yeah, yeah. You, and in your message, in the bulletin and eNews, you talked about Monday

being a day to recuperate and rest from…

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

…from holy fatigue. Those words I think we're kind of ringing in my heart when we found out the news. Like he made it through Easter. 

Fr. Ben

Right.

Adrian

On Monday, a day that typically priests kind of rest, from all the things…

Fr. Ben

I imagine families, too. If you've just brought kiddos to church for bunch of Masses.

Adrian

That’s a celebration too.

Fr. Ben

But yes, yes it is. It is our day just sort of just rest in the Lord and be quiet.

Adrian

Yeah, and then Pope Francis was invited to do that in a very like a much more eternal way.

Fr. Ben

Much more than sitting in an armchair. And you know, yeah, more than quietly going about a day off.

Adrian

Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Ben

And that was, and I wrote about as I wrote about in the bulletin, two of the, you know, just kind of my, I tend to do that, you know, Christmas, Easter. You know, the big holy days is, are these two days where the, the Holy Father traditionally goes out on the, on the loggia or the balcony of Saint Peter's and gives that blessing to the city of Rome, into the world we call the Urbi et Orbi. And he did that. Like he even in his in his frailty and in his, you know, being so... you know, he had... recovered enough to go from the hospital in Rome, a few miles away from the Vatican, and return to the Vatican, but he rallied, you know, with enough, with enough, I’m sure it took courage. I'm sure it took a... he was probably experiencing a lot of pain and weakness, but he wanted to be with his people, and as they say, you know,  still be in the saddle.

Adrian

Mm-hm.

Fr. Ben

So it was really inspiring to come back and watch the replay of that. And I remember. Okay.

Fr. Ben

They can they brought him fairly easily onto the front of the balcony, but then he's going to get the popemobile. It's going to do that too. And we'll go around Saint Peter's Square as we're so used to seeing, but which hasn't happened for many months now. But that, that final...

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

The final act of being with his people was quite inspiring.

Adrian

Yeah. 

Fr. Ben

Very, very edifying. 

Adrian

A father with his children.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

That's what I, that's what I was seeing.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. Loving them to the end. So and, and you know I say that with, with as people probably know even, you know, still with, with a great love and admiration for Pope Benedict, who

in his unique own style and his unique discernment with the Lord, decided to, back in 2013,

decided to resign from the papacy when he knew that his his strength was not up to the task and humility and kind of and we say, magnanimity to do that was, you know... each pope is unique.

Each pope is a unique individual man like any other, any other human being. And so but yeah, it is just to see him with his, with his flock in that way. It was, was really, really beautiful there.

Adrian

So I was, I was curious. So unlike a president, where, you know, we have somewhat of a say with who holds that office, we virtually have no say in who the pope is, right?

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

So what's what's like the proper disposition that we should have or frame of mind when it comes to the Holy Father? Because then you're saying,

Fr. Ben

Really great question.

Adrian

Pope Francis, there was, you know, as a Church communicator,  like there were moments where I was like, well, my job got a lot harder because of the lack of clarity of something he said, or, you know, the society twisting his words and things like that, and, you know, sometimes there were moments of division but yeah, like how, how should we be kind of in... keeping him in mind.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

Yes. That's great. I think the best way to approach it is to be a thoughtful and discerning and prayerful disciple of Jesus, because first and foremost, the pope is the what we call the Vicar of Christ. And so the pope can be the pope God wants for us when we're not so much looking... we do look to him. He is, like you said, a father. He is the universal shepherd. But we'll never really, truly grasp what he is for us. Unless we’re ultimately looking for Jesus. You know, who is the true head of the Church. The pope is the, the pope is the head of the Church on earth. And he is a like I said, a moment ago, he's he's a human being, like any of us. With a special office and with special graces that, attached to that office in which God wants to pour out on him as he exercises that office, but to really, to really have a grasp of, of who the pope is and how we ought to think of him. It’s... It’s important that we that we really are ultimately seeking union with Christ. Because Christ, he is the true head of the Church. Right? As Saint Paul says, the pope is his vicar on earth and he's the one that and he is meant to be an image of of Christ and of Christ the Shepherd, as is any priest. Any bishop. But with that but with that special responsibility that he has. So if we're earnestly seeking Christ, then we will be able to see the pope in the in the fullest light of who he is. And we'll see that, you know, Pope Francis was a very different kind of pope than what we've been accustomed to in the last, you know, for, I suppose, for you, for you and me and probably kind of for our rough generation here... Right? We've known our whole lives prior to him.

Adrian

And I think it's been interesting, like society has come to embrace him much more than some of our other previous popes. Right? Technology has, you know, helped make that a reality is much easier to hear what he's saying, where he's going, what he's doing, and things like that. And even, I noticed that like I really came to notice that in these days, since his passing, the Church has a lot of traditions that maybe we forget because it happens so infrequently surrounding the passing of a pope. And I saw, like, my, my Facebook feed just flooded with like, they were surprised at the fact that he lays in state, open coffin and like, yeah, people were just so... disturbed by that, or unsettled maybe. That might be better word for that. So, like...what should we be keeping in mind with those traditions? Like what… Could you walk us through just like why they're important? 

Fr. Ben

Right. Yeah. Well. Well, I mean, first of all, I think, actually, I, we had just had the blessing and the the honor of laying to rest a parishioner here at a funeral just a few hours ago, as we record this. And I kind of mentioned in the in the funeral homily that, you know, the world is about to watch something and is watching something as we grieve for Pope Francis and as we bury him, 

the world, it's a chance to see something we do all the time, right? That the Church, that's one of the Church's most, you know, regular, steady, things that she does is to, is to bury the dead and to

console the grieving. And I think in our, in our modern world, even in our you know, kind of modern society, just culturally, there is, there's an aversion to thinking about death and mortality and, and I think it's this moment where the Church can really shine because even in the person of the pope. Right? Even when, you know, when the pope dies and they ascertain his death kind of famously this is another tradition. It's that they call him by his baptismal name.

Adrian

Really?

Fr. Ben

Yeah. And so instead of saying, you know, Francis there's a whole procedure for it. It's kind of mysterious and it's kind of it dates back to, you know, centuries to kind of some more, you know, earlier customs, but, you know, so they would have said, you know, Jorge.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

Jorge Mario Bergoglio is his baptismal name. And for, you know, for Pope Benedict, you know, Joseph. Joseph Ratzinger, Karol Wojtya for JPII. But there's this way in which, the whole world gets to see that we're all, that we are all, as we as we said it... Yeah. Like like we're talking about coming through the other side of Holy Week and Easter and then but we began our preparation with that at the beginning of Lent on Ash Wednesday or you know, remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return. So this, this way in which, we're going to have this moment and to, to allow the world to see that we as the Church and as the Body of Christ, we have this deep understanding of what it is to be human, what it means to be a finite creature. A redeemed, you know, son or daughter of God, for sure, but the but the frailty of human life that we all, will stand before the judgment seat of God right at the moment of death. The most important thing is to pray for the dead to, to keep...you know, like we saw the other day, you know, the body of, of Pope Francis being borne into, into Saint Peter's Basilica and lying in state to be treated with dignity and honor, that the body, the body is not just the, you know, now empty vessel that that is just you know, cast away. It’s a beautiful opportunity for the world to really see the depth of our faith in the in the resurrection of the body. We proclaim in the creed. So yeah. Yeah. And then there's, right, there's tons of other symbolism and ritual and all these things. that’ll fill our, our lives and, and fill our, our social media feeds and everything for the next several weeks, you know. Yeah.

Adrian

I’m always just blown away by like the simplicity of some of the things. So I think you see both sides of the spectrum, like here's the procession from the chapel to Saint Peter's. Like, I mean, it seemed like you went on days. Yeah, obviously not everybody gets that experience. But then like when you see him there, you know, very simple coffin.

Fr. Ben

Yes.

Adrian

Whereas like nowadays, at least here in the United States, like some of some of the caskets that we'd see are like very ornate. You know, look like a mausoleum on, that can be carried around. But like his is, it's just so simple.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

I just love that juxtaposition.

Fr. Ben

And that’s, Yeah. And that's and that's sort of a uniquely Francis thing. Is that, from what I understand, he left, you know, very specific instructions that his, his coffin was to be very modest and his resting place to be very simple, I mean, beautiful, but in a place of honor,

but still relatively simple for, at least in the, in the... relative to other other popes. And so,

yeah, I noticed you mention mentioned the procession. Like, it just kind of makes me think of,

you know, it's different in many ways, but effectively it's, it's the same. It's the same thing, you know, when we finish a funeral here and we, I get into my car in the, in the rectory garage

and join in a procession up Lynn Avenue to, to McColl Drive up to Judicial Road for the

to the to the cemetery, to Saint John's cemetery. You know and and you might have like a police escort and you know we put our four-way flashers on and it, it is this beautiful thing where I think anybody who we might meet at an intersection on the way sees that and, “Oh, someone has died.” And they're being remembered and they're being prayed for. And, yeah, it might be kind of irritating for a second, but then you think, oh, there's a family that's grieving. There’s someone who’s left this world and is deserving of a few, a few moments of my time to affirm their dignity in their life. Yeah.

Adrian

Yeah. I’ve not thought of it that way.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

That's really beautiful. So, kind of diving deeper into this, like, moment of remembrance. We're recording this on the eve of his funeral.

Fr. Ben

Yeah, yeah.

Adrian

And knowing that in a variety of different ways, we've been on a rollercoaster, during this papacy and even far beyond, I thought it would be great if we could kind of do, a Mount Rushmore draft, as it were, of kind of what would we... what are we personally memorializing in the pontificate of Pope Francis?

Fr. Ben

Sure.

Adrian

So what is the what are the kind of top four things, whether they be events or writings or teachings that you're relishing, in this Easter joy.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. Yeah. Great question. And I love... I like sports talk radio. They talk about doing Mount Rushmores all the time, so and...

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

Who are the four greatest pitchers of all time? Who are the four greatest quarterbacks?

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. No, that’s, this is great. And I can have some thoughts together on this. I think, in terms of Pope Francis’, you know, writing and teaching and, I mean, you think and even overall, for me... it was early in his papacy, but when he came out with the document “Evangelii Gaudium,” which is the it's the we've mentioned this before, but the papal documents, teaching documents from the Church, they usually go by the, by the first few Latin words of the, of the document itself. So Evangelii gaudium means “The Joy of the Gospel.” And this document came out early in Pope Francis's papacy and it's sort of his blueprint for evangelization in the Church. It's really long. And, I mean, it's all mostly quite good and really, what's interesting about it is, it wasn't...  a lot of what's contained in it was, to some people, it was not actually all that new in a couple of ways. Like, first of all, you know, most of the, you know, all the popes dating back at least to Saint Paul VI had offered sort of, you know, certainly Paul VI, John Paul II, John Paul I wasn't pope long enough to give us much of anything there, but Benedict XVI all had documents that talked about evangelization, you know, bringing the Gospel, you know, to the world, especially in our, in our modern world, which is increasingly secular and, where the faith is eroding, the Christian culture is eroding. And then also, you've to parts of the world that still have largely been converted. But Pope Francis when he was... And so yeah. So, the history and the ideas weren't all entirely new, but they were expressed in his language and with his authority, his new authority as pope. But there was, there's also a connection, so… Back when he was the archbishop of Buenos Aires in Argentina, he attended a meeting of all the bishops of Latin America and the Caribbean and that meeting, and I think, I believe Pope Benedict was there at that meeting that took place

at a shrine in Brazil called Aparecida and they came out with a document that, that was really profound. And, as it turns out, Pope Francis’ then, you know, Cardinal Bergoglio, was at one of the head writers of that of that document that was, that came out of that meeting of all the bishops in Latin America. And so, you know, a lot of, he was some, he was somewhat known, through that. And it's a beautiful document that speaks about how, you know, all of our sort of Church structure, all of our all of our, you know, parishes and all our works to catechize and sacramentalize and all of the... all of it will be kind of fruitless unless there's this conversion of heart, unless people actually really know Jesus and that's where this whole... it's one of the places where this whole concept of missionary discipleship is really articulated in a powerful way.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

And so there, you can see that, you can see the providence of how, okay, this I think that document came out in like, I want to say like around 2008 or 9.

Adrian

Okay.

Fr. Ben

And then just a handful of years later, okay, here's, here's the... one of the main drafters of that who is who has become pope.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

And so for him to carry that, that whole, that whole teaching of that we really have to we have to go out as a missionary Church and, and that’s and there’s so many, there's so many profound lines in that document. Even down to things like, you know, what is the parish? You know, how do we conceive of the parish? And when, you know, he talks about preaching, you know, your totally beautiful insights for, for how to preach, you know, in a compelling way in a Christ-centered way, in a way that doesn't like, wear out your listeners. And that’s, those... So, you know, that’s been really important to me, because, you know, I love, I love preaching. It’s gonna be one of the things I.. I’ll still be preaching to the seminarians, but to preach to a parish family is, is, it's in so much wisdom... and just... just inspiration drawn from what he,what he gave us there. So. Yeah.

Adrian

Yeah, yeah. So “Evangelii Gaudium” made it on my list as well.

Fr. Ben

Good. Good.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

So that might be like the Washington of Mt. Rushmore.

Adrian

I think so. Right. Kind of the core the seed of lot of, a lot of things. I remember when that that documentary came out, I was working for the Diocese of Austin in youth and young adult and campus ministry, and my director and I were invited to be part of a team that developed a pastoral plan for the whole diocese. And there’s a very strong desire for this not to just be something that ended up on a shelf, but something that actually was, was going to shape how we ministered within the Diocese of Austin. And I think just before that, that pastoral plan really kicked off. This document came out. And so it just gave us a ton of, a ton of content. A ton of thought into this new era that we're going to be embarking on.

Fr. Ben

Mm-hm.

Adrian

And, definitely shaped a lot of what, what we did in Austin. And one, I, in prep for today's conversation, I just was scanning through there and a line that stuck out to me, then and now was, “that there are Christians whose lives seem like a Lent without an Easter.” Like, um... and knowing how we've been talking and, you know, with, with Monsignor Shea and, you know, living in an apostolic age where the Church is being tried but found wanting.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

Because, you know, they've encountered Christians that that are just they haven't experienced that Easter.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

That joy. So for me, that's always a beautiful reminder of how much we are called to celebrate the victory of Christ while honoring the struggle and the desert that we may be in. It's both-and.

Fr. Ben

Yeah, exactly. And it makes me think of, so, you know, we have a custom here at Saint John’s after the, after every Friday morning Mass all throughout the year, obviously coming through Lent, we have stations in the evening, you know, on the Fridays of Lent. But actually this week there's a Stations of the Cross that gets prayed on Fridays. And the one Friday a year

I ask that they not do that and that's today. On the Friday of the Octave of Easter. It’s like... it's still Sunday.

Adrian

Sure. 

Fr. Ben

Like and it's still the resurrection.

Adrian

Yeah. 

Fr. Ben

You know. Yes, the cross is there and we love the cross. And we know the cross is the tree of life. And you know, but today's the, it's the empty tomb today.

Adrian

Right. 

Fr. Ben

And it's... Yeah. So yeah.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

And and for him to...Yeah for him to use that to bring that language to write that, that there's, there's a... Because the Christian life and following Jesus isn't just to the cross.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

It isn't just duty, isn't just sort of like an ethical code that we live by that kind of. Yeah, you do it because, because it’s what your family does or it's because it's the decent thing to do, but it's because you're, you're tapping into this, this new life that Christ lives in you. Yeah. Nice.

Adrian

All right. So what's next for you?

Fr. Ben

So for me, the next one... There's different ways to talk about this, but what I call it is, kind of a kind of a tempering of a feeling of safety. And I'll try to explain that. So, so, I am 100%, you know, a JPII, Benedict generation Catholic. And, you know, grew up and discerned my priestly vocation, you know, went to, went to college, you know, getting deeper into the mystery of the Church and love for the Church and love for the Lord under the guidance of John Paul II. And then, you know, Pope Benedict kind of carried me through seminary and so it was kind of my, I always think, you know, he was the professor pope.

Adrian

Sure.

Fr. Ben

And so, and he was my professor, you know, in seminary, of being... studying theology and getting formed to be a priest. And there was, there was a feeling of just like safety and contentment, because you knew that, you know, John Paul II, Benedict, you know, they were, they were that strong voice. And they were that they were that they gave you gave you just all this confidence and feeling of safety.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

And what I’ve come to understand, I think, with the papacy of Pope Francis, he became, you know, 2013. I was in my first year of priesthood and, I could probably share that whole memory

of his election. where I was, and, but you... and it does kind of connect back to the first one of the Church, and you need to go out. The Church needing to, and... I won't say the language ever made me very comfortable, but I think I understand what it what it meant and why it was necessary. That, you know, he said I, you know, I prefer a Church that's out there, that's in the streets. That's, that's that's bruised and broken rather than just, you know, staying in the safe, you know, safety of of inside itself and becoming self-referential. And as uncomfortable as it is that made me at times, I realize it was it was necessary because, especially these these last ten years as a pastor, you know, just seeing how how easy it is for, for us to become very comfortable and, doing things the way they've always been done and that there is this need to go out and, still with a confidence in the truth, still with... with our Church’s, you know, perennial teaching and, and theology and, and ritual and sacraments and liturgy and all of those things. But to, I think that was, I think that was needed for, and for, you know, certainly my generation. Have we always, you know, carried that out? Well, maybe maybe not. Have I always been really happy about that? Maybe not. But I do at least recognize that I was being challenged to not stay, to not stay in the shallow end of the pool. And you know, for, and for the love of God and for the love of neighbor to take some risks and, let my kind of safe places be shaken up a little bit.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

So. And I actually consider that a strength of of his, of his papacy.

Adrian

Yeah. Yeah. So for my next one, I'm gonna riff off that a little bit. So this is, this is particularly tied to an event, but one thing that just is, is just crystal clear in my heart and mind was, his Statio Orbis during the pandemic.

Fr. Ben

Yes. Yes.

Adrian

And so...

Fr. Ben

That fits really well.

Adrian

Yeah. I think just a moment where we, we lived in some very unimaginable times like leading into that, you know, if you had asked me, like a month before all of that went off like that would not have even been on my radar. So just a time of of uncertainty. I can remember driving to our grocery store and seeing lines, like, just around the building. And in Texas, we have some pretty big grocery stores. And and so that's kind of a feat. To make it all the way around. And then the one time that I had to drive to work on roads that were absolutely empty. The only time I could make it to work in a reasonable amount of time was during the pandemic, like just so very unimaginable things. But, but on that day in March, evening for him, day for us, he kind of limped up the steps of Saint Peter, led us in prayer, led us in a time of adoration, a time

where many people couldn’t go, because the churches were closed... There was just, I mean, it just seems like the the pinnacle of a father leading his family.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

Through these uncharted waters. And during that prayer, he said, the Lord asks us, and in the midst of our tempest, invites us to reawaken and put into practice that solidarity and hope, capable of giving strength, support and meaning to these hours when everything seems to be floundering.

Fr. Ben

Mm.

Adrian

I like the, that just was a moment of consolation for me in the midst of all of that.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

And once I heard that, you know, I, I at least made a conscious decision to make the most of that time. As much, as painful as it was, like I didn't want to waste a moment and not... I was working in the vocations office at that time, and we were supposed to host a young adult silent retreat. I always looked forward to because we got to go out to my favorite retreat center. It was beautiful. It's a place that I, I find like a lot of my history and... But because of the pandemic, we had to pivot. We decided to do it virtually. And, and just the amazing graces of getting to do something where young adults constantly were telling us that we love this retreat, but when we come back, it's just like when we come back from the retreat center just doesn't feel the same. But we got to unpack these like practices of prayer and discernment in the context that they're going to be doing this every day. And there are just so many unexpected graces in the midst of this pandemic. And like, to me, that was just kind of like a proof, if you will, of what the Holy Father was encouraging us in that prayer.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. I mean, there is there were so few places you could go to find any, anything sturdy. Even down to even down to what we were, you know, things changed so fast. You know, I think people were doing their best, by and large but, to give us, you know, the, the information about the about the pandemic itself, about, you know, and but everything was moving so fast and changing so fast. And there was, there was our Holy Father. With Jesus. And with and with the message that, that God makes all things new and that we can place our total and abiding trust in him. And like,that's that was the most that was the most important thing.

Adrian

Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Ben

You know. Yeah. That's great. That's great.

Adrian

Okay. So what's next for you?

Fr. Ben

So for next for me, I call it, just attentiveness to the, to the forgotten. And, I think this or you could or you could call it, you know, his emphasis on mercy. Or his emphasis on accompaniment. And again, not always things that, that were easy answers for me or easy things to grasp or even things that made me feel comfortable. But still, in in humility, just that's what that's what the Holy Spirit was moving his heart to emphasize with his with his ministry. And, I think for me, the I always found great inspiration, you know, even in his motto, you know, which a lot of people would talk about, his motto, it’s kind of hard to translate. But it's the words. it's the Latin words, Miserando atque eligendo, which is taken from a homily by, Saint Bede, on the call of Matthew in the gospel, where, Bede sort of takes the what we hear in the gospel and the calling of Saint Matthew. And Jesus called Matthew the tax collector, looking at him through the eyes of mercy and choosing him, like having mercy on him and choosing him. And, just what a what a beautiful and kind of, I mean, talk about a shepherd or a bishop for a pope, giving people an insight into and how into his own personal understanding of the Lord's, of his relationship with the Lord, that he understood himself as needing to be shown mercy, and yet being chosen at the same time. And so then you can see that that happening through him and the mercy he showed and he was he was genuine and he did go out of his way. He showed a supernatural charity, I think. Not that other popes haven’t ever smiled at anyone or embraced, a child or a poor person or, or anything like that.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

This is why in the, in the, like in the bulletin article and it's like we kind of really try to get your information from, you know, faithful Catholic sources. And because like if you want sometimes

if you watch the secular media, they’ll make you think this was the first pope who was ever nice to anyone. His idea was not exactly. But did he have a, he had a… There was a, there's almost kind of a, like a spiritual quality to his tenderness and mercy that he showed to people that that was unique and that people really did resonate to in a new way. And, and, and also, like you were saying, with, with new media and, and how easy it is to have images of the pope and, and, you know, you know, modern travel and modern technology. But the way he, the way he really did accompany people would let them know they were loved. And, you know, even people who,

who kind of end up at the center of kind of some of the culture wars and, you know, questions of morality, you know, people who, who the Church, I think, is wrongly accused very often of ignoring and not having compassion for, you know... We know that's not true. We know that

at its essence, the Church's teaching on things like, you know, sexuality and marriage and, and,

and life issues and concern for the poor and, you know, all of these things, that, that the Church actually, if those teachings are rightly understood, are, they are teachings that are, that are

that are well established in, in Scripture and theology and, but it's how they get put into practice.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

And he had, he had a way of doing that that was just credible to a lot more people. And so I'm grateful for that. And, if there were excesses in that, if there was, there was imprudence in that or in ways that lent it to be misinterpreted or that that he was, that he was endorsing things that he wasn't endorsing. Well, that’s, that’s that’s for, that’s for other, you know, that's for others to sort out.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

But for me, as a faithful son of the Church, I just see a man loving, loving and trying to love as God loves.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

Yeah

Adrian

So for me, I think, something that epitomizes that, I think from the very start of his pontificate and it's my next item on my list is, is when he stepped out onto the loggia after his election and he accepted the call. One just the imagery of him just being so small, in such an immense space.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

Just always sticks out to me. And then in those first moments, he asked us to pray for him.

Fr. Ben

Yes, yes.

Adrian

Which everybody touts as like a first, and maybe it it is, I don't know, but just that to me, that was just a really profound moment that like, yeah, this is someone accepting an office that is far bigger than him.

Fr. Ben

Yes. I'm glad you brought that up. I don't know, I mean, I if you don't, if you can't say more, but I remember I took that, I took that into, I’m surprised… I’m surprised I didn't have that memory, but, when I was installed as pastor, in my first, in Farmington and again here at Saint John's, I actually kind of took that in as I began my homily in my installation, as I knelt and just ask people to pray over me. And that's... Yeah, you know, I was right out of, right out of the

Pope Francis playbook. So.

Adrian

Yeah. I mean, I think and that an element for me just personally was like, thinking I was working at the diocese and when we got the announcement of the white smoke, we, I, we were at work, and I forget who, but somebody got on the intercom system and announced that there was white smoke. And for the first time ever, like, you could hear people running down the halls, you know, trying to make it into the conference room before, you know, we found out who it was just to be there part of the moment. Like, to me, there was like this moment of solidarity, like, you know, us 50 or so people in the pastoral center united with people across the world, you know, expecting just this big fanfare of a moment. And we're met with this moment of humility.

Fr. Ben

Yeah, yeah.

Adrian

Yep.

Fr. Ben

And yeah, that even kind of goes back to, like, you know, the like if like I was saying, I, you know, just that that needed sort of purification from the kind of the triumphalistic like, oh rah rah rah we’re super, you know, like you're expecting this great, you know, the pope to come out like and just like, be. And he just said, what, he said “buena sera.” He said “Good afternoon.”

Adrian

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. 

Fr. Ben

Yeah, I was in the I was in the confessional, at Saint Peter's in Forest Lake with Bishop then-Father DeGrood. And there were a few other, we were hearing school confessions and, and we knew that, we knew that a vote in the conclave was ending. Or that there was going to be smoke and, and I had like two more confessions to go and, I, I got a text saying white smoke from another priest. And so I was like, I guess, like, hurry up. And it would be like, yeah, it's Yeah, you know for your penance two Our Fathers, two Hail Marys, say your act of contrition outside the confessional, I absolve you. Just c’mon go, go go! And then running to, the running to the, the conference room and putting on TV. Yeah.

Adrian

Okay. Round us to home.

Fr. Ben

Okay. So I think the last, the last thing for me, to that was so, so special to me about, about our late holy father was, his obvious devotion to Our Lady and the saints. This is a this is kind of a personal, memory for me. I've got my, this is my rule of the Companions of Christ. So in in 2017, it was our 25th anniversary in the companions, our priestly fraternity. And so we made a pilgrimage to Assisi and Rome, and we had a moment to meet. We were in, in the in a special audience section of the of the Wednesday audience in Saint Peter's Square. We were in on the steps of Saint Peter’s and had a kind of a personal meeting with, with the Holy Father. And that’s the picture that you can see. So we’ve got in the, in the, in the church by the baptismal font. We presented him with a copy of our rule and he kind of I remember he kind of looks through it and he doesn't know much English. He didn't know much in English, enough to, you know, be able to communicate a little bit.

Adrian

Sure.

Fr. Ben

But he said, “Oh, you are priests who live in a community, no?” And we said yes. Yes. And he

and then he, and then he took his rosary out of his pocket and, you know, he held his rosary, he say “Pray this every day. Every day.”

Adrian

Wow.

Fr. Ben

And since that time… Have I prayed the rosary every day? I wish I could say have, but I at least I'll never forget that.

Adrian

Sure.

Fr. Ben

And I do try pray the rosary most days. I try to stay faithful to that, but, you know. So he had this obvious, you know, tender devotion. He talks about that, he talked about that, from his grandmother was instrumental in that. And so, you know, authentic devotion to the, to the Rosary and to Our Lady. And actually where he's going to be buried at the Basilica of Saint Mary Major and it’s and he was very fond of there's a, there’s an icon in one of the side chapels at, at the Basilica of Saint Mary Major in Rome, which has this, which is the, it's called the Salus Populii Romani the salvation of the people of Rome. It’s this ancient icon of Our Lady. That’s very special to the diocese of Rome, to the to the people of Rome. And he would he prayed there over 100 times in his papacy. And so he would typically go there as he was leaving for any one of his international journeys. And then he would and to pray for, you know, Our Lady's intercession on, on his journey. And he would upon returning to Rome, he would go and thank her for that. And so he prayed there many, many times. And he'll be then be buried there. So obvious, you know, which is really what you’d want in any pope. Like, tender and, and, you know, strong devotion to the Mother of God. And then there were just these are kind of these are kind of minor things, probably in the overall, the overall picture. But I remember it was early in his papacy. He, he did this thing where he, he canonized, and so the pope can kind of can kind of snap canonize any saint whose cause he, he wishes. He can. There’s a there’s a special privilege that the pope has to be able to do that.

Adrian

Sure.

Fr. Ben

And he canonized a Jesuit saint, Saint Peter Faber. Favre actually, for

Adrian

Sure.

Fr. Ben

For anyone who’s... Yeah, it's the same. It’s same name. But, Saint Peter Faber was, one of the original companions of Saint Ignatius. And for whatever reason, his cause had just never been advanced to sainthood. And so he was Blessed Peter Faber for centuries. And, Pope Francis had a devotion to him and, and then and so when he became pope, because he just, he just you just pull the lever and… and I had known, I had known a little bit about him. But when, when Pope Francis did that, I read a, I read a biography of him and just found him to be, found him to be a saint that I really resonated with deeply.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

You know, like someone who was he was, he was recognized as kind of one of the quietest of the Jesuits, but one of the holiest and just, like, magnanimous, kind-hearted and, you know, one of the most loyal friends of the, of the the early Jesuits. So, you know, Ignatius and Francis Xavier and, you know, all the early Jesuits. So, it really awakened this, this, and I never, I probably never would have gone that deep with this saint without without, without the ministry of Pope Francis to kind of to kind of alert me to him. And I'm really blessed by that. And then the other one, that’s, I think, really important is that, you know, he one of his great moments that he, he made one trip to the United States in 2015, when and he, at that on, on that journey, he,

he celebrated the canonization of Saint Junipero Serra. In the events of the last few years where, you know, someone like a saint like Serra has been, has been so... you have statues of him vandalized and, you know, all of the all of the turmoil of the last several years and the upheaval in society, like, but to know that, yeah, but the but this, you know, the supposedly, you know, progressive pope who, who, you know, you know, Francis canonized him, you know, and so there's that, there's that, there's that, that that confidence again, I keep using that word. But for just that, you know, like the pope letting us know that this, this missionary who had such an effect on our country and the Church in our country is worthy of, of being venerated as a saint. So, yeah, those would be those would be, you know, saints in Our Lady and.

Adrian

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I love that we're bookending this. I, we have that other overlap here. So mine was specifically a devotion to Sleeping Saint Joseph.

Fr. Ben

Yes. Yes. That too.

Adrian

Saint Joseph is an unsung hero, I think, in some aspects. But also a lot of people have a devotion. I'm maybe late jumping on that bus. But Pope Francis kind of talking about that and the images of it and as he talked about it truly as, as the father, you know, of the, a father of the Church, and now being a father and knowing how precious sleep can be.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

But how how profound that was, like in in the life of Christ, I mean, it saved him in some in some ways, yeah, I just, I think there's this beautiful, beautiful, reality that that I'm certainly going to be unpacking as I continue to walk with Saint Joseph, and, and, you know, the trust that, that the Holy Father was a model for, I think.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

And then similar also to, you know, Our Lady Undoer of Knots.

Fr. Ben

Yes, exactly.

Adrian

I think the two just were just beautiful, beautiful devotions that he encouraged us to take. You know, so, Yeah. So, so, like I say, we're on the eve of of his funeral. And then in the days, and, I don't know, weeks to come, we'll we'll find out…

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

You know who the next successor or Peter will be.

Fr. Ben

We will.

Adrian

And so join us in prayer for, for not only the repose of the Holy Father’s soul, but for the wisdom and and guidance in this next stage.

Fr. Ben

Yes.

Adrian

This next chapter. And so you're going to be experiencing all of this potentially much closer to the actual.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. Right. Right. On Monday, Father Dan Bodin, who is going to be joining us on the on the pilgrimage, he texted me, you know, “Side trip to Rome for a conclave?” No, I actually think we'll we'll still be in France when it starts. Yeah.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

But yeah.

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

So we… We could be in Paris when the, when, when the cardinals get, get sealed in the Sistine Chapel. And, you know, we start seeing smoke, you know, from that from the chimney. So yeah. 

Adrian

Yeah.

Fr. Ben

My I, I'm not going to do any like prognostication of which cardinals but but if you had that, if you asked me what name papal name I’d love to see, but it’d be Leo. I'd love for there to be another Leo the lion. Pope Leo, the last Leo, Leo XIII. One of my favorite popes.

Adrian

Yeah. That's awesome.

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

Cool.

Fr. Ben

The pope who gave us, you know, Catholic social teaching and... yeah. So.

Adrian

Cool. 

Fr. Ben

That's all I'll say for now, maybe. 

Adrian

Nice. Well, so is this going to be our third episode with no outdoor report?

Fr. Ben

It's not.

Adrian

Good.

Fr. Ben

But not by much. Not by much. I got the kayak out on Easter Monday.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. You know, thinking about the Pope and praying for him. But I got out and I caught a few. I scratched out a few small crappies.

Adrian

Okay. 

Fr. Ben

Over on Orchard Lake in Lakeville. Barely enough to, barely enough. But it's enough to qualify is as I didn't get skunked. I didn’t. I got some fish, but still, I haven’t, I have not scratched the itch. But fortunately, going on the pilgrimage right now, it'll just kind of cut out that last, that last time of waiting until the until the fishing opener. So. Yeah.

Adrian

Right.

Fr. Ben

We're going to get back is that is the Wisconsin opener. And the week later the Minnesota opener. So okay. So more to come.

Adrian

Yeah. We're looking forward to have it. Cool.

Fr. Ben

Yes.

Adrian

Well, I think this is a great conversation about just

Fr. Ben

Yeah.

Adrian

where we are and where we're going. And... and you blessings on your trip and the pilgrimage to your way to.

Fr. Ben

Can’t wait to, and you know, I'm going to be I'm going to do my best to send you high-quality high-resolution videos from wherever we are and keep our people who keep, you know, keep us all spiritually on the pilgrimage. Even if, even if folks aren't physically on the pilgrimage, that's going to be the goal. You know?

Adrian

Cool yeah. Great.

Fr. Ben

All right, all right. Well, Adrian, thank you, Tom. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for coming along for the conversation. And until next time, as you go out to seek to make a catch of souls for the kingdom, wish everybody tight lines. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.

Archbishop Hebda

Hello, this is Archbishop Bernard Hebda. Thank you for listening to the Friends of the Bridegroom podcast.